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Church Authority Judged By Its Fruits

Posted by David on October 20, 2009

Criteria Of Fruits: “By their fruits ye shall know them”.

A Response when asked if I have “accepted Jesus as my personal savior”?

 I am sure you are a most gracious loving soul; that indeed you have been transformed (reborn) by the love of God in your life through what you truly believe is a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” whom you proclaim as your “Lord and Savior”. I am happy for you to have found; through active prayer, study and meditation; your indwelling personal relationship with the Father ,  of doing that which we were all created for,” to recognize, know and to worship God”.

Certainly, many have found a “personal relationship with God” within the fabric of Christian pastoral guidance counsel, Baptism or Holy Communion. The issue “of fruits” is not whether it is possible for someone to be transformed within the context of a church fostered Christian belief and experience a true life changing event. To make that claim would be, in itself, putting a limit upon how God operates, of placing parameters upon the inscrutable Wisdom of the Almighty! Rather, the question of ” by its fruits” refers to the organized Church, how the institution of men is truly serving humanity as a whole, how its actions and history compare with the teachings of love and acceptance extolled by Jesus as applied in the world wide arena.

 Again, individuals may come to God within the confines of liturgical based awareness and thinking; rather, should I say: God, in his Mercy and Grace, may enlighten, through the living waters of the Holy Spirit, the soul of the seeker; allowing the chosen to partake of the elixir of astonishment; the soul enraptured beyond what mere words can convey; seeing true meaning far beyond that expressed within a mere church service!

However, notice a principle reiterated here of an “indwelling personal relationship with the Father” as “found through active prayer, study and meditation”.  Stated within the “Hidden Words” of the Baha’i Faith we read,” Love Me [God] that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.” This is an important consideration. The love of God can not enter and transform unless the heart is open to receive the blessing and the heart can not be opened unless it be cleansed from worldly afflictions. The big question is how much worldly affliction is brought about by social order, State…and the Church itself? In the Bible, Matthew in Chapter 7 warns, “Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day,’ Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly,’ I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers”!”

  Clearly, without open minded searching one can never find the truth, be it of worldly matters or transforming rebirth in one’s inner self. Without independent investigation, one is left with creeds and dictates requiring assumptions of blind faith in ancestral beliefs and ancient practices preached as the only allowable symbolic representation or embodiment of a covenantal relationship between God and mankind. Of course accepting ordained authority figures, as truly “called by God” into service and thus gifted with divinely inspired Biblical understanding, is part of the scenario of this doctrine centered, creed based relationship with God.

Faith based on such assumptions provides, in itself, questionable nourishment for widening horizons, of fostering an ever deepening scope of continual development. No foundation is laid for extending the hand of true love and appreciation, recognizing validity in those worshipping God in different ways with different names. There is little inner wisdom or real “spiritual growth” involvement Not much “Bread of Life” has been ingested; Just habitual acceptance without question, direction borne of status quo rather than true fulfilling rebirth. The inner eye is not open to receive the light of truth from whatever source it may be found. It remains closed in slumber lulled in the sleep of tradition and satisfaction.

 How much of our perceptual belief is framed by “conditioned response” and “formulated anticipation”? Are we limited by “blinders”, not allowing us to freely see, hear or be aware of discoveries, observations or philosophies deemed outside authoritarian imposed proscribed criteria; not looking beyond the road ahead as set forth by organized salvation/membership strategies? Do we not end up confining the Almighty within a “box” walled in by human design and expectation; possibly confusing the very love of God we seek with doctrinally determined experiences; a planned entertaining good time to be had by all; a congregational euphoria; becoming obsessed with vain imaginings of our own dreams and desires; caught up in the veils, trapped within our own walls, residing in a phantom of fantasy; categorically denying all but what we are conditioned to accept as valid and true?

 In the Bible, in Matthew 7:7, we are encouraged to,” search and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened”. In Matthew 7:16 we read,” By their fruits ye shall know them, A good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor a bad tree bring forth good fruit”. Using these guidelines I have searched for the “good fruit” i.e.: bearing greater knowledge, understanding, appreciation, acceptance and unity; uniting hearts and souls in laying the foundation of an ever-advancing world civilization; battling the demons of ignorance and superstition while promoting the Kingdom of God on Earth as it is in heaven.

Many Church-Christians cautioned me not to search, look or even question what was taught by authoritarian orthodox Christian teaching, that to do so was “tempting deception by Satan”; “you will be led astray”…etc. Well, I followed the advice of Matthew and looked, studied, prayed and searched. I attempted to cleanse myself of all forms of life-long social and doctrinal man-made “accepted” fashions and truths. I looked to science, astronomy, archeology, philosophy, anthropology, biology, art, music and, last but not least, read and meditated on the writings of other cultural faith traditions. In so doing, my inner appreciation and awareness of “the Beyond” was greatly enhanced.

 When looked at through the criteria of universal humanitarian needs of fellowship, understanding, love, inner and outer peace, unity, spirituality and Communion with God; while cutting through the decadent mire of man-made traditions, dogmas, interpretations, literal thinking and more; it became apparent the pearls of knowledge, as taught by all the great teachers of the past, have become clouded, altered or very misunderstood by authority figures; have been rearranged to suit short-term social goals; have been edited and re-prioritized by popularity and fashion.

 Friendships can be threatened, misunderstandings nurtured and understanding itself limited due to a misdirected misapplied church-fed fear of “being lead astray”. People often “parrot” back common clichés so often preached as street corner ministries proclaim,” Only in the name of Jesus can you be saved”. Only by the blood of Jesus…Jesus was a ransom sacrifice…your sins are paid for by His blood…only God knows what Hell is…you will be caste into the eternal lake of Fire!”. And so it goes on; the fear, narrow-minded thinking; shrinking back into a well of superstition, denying all but the Bible (itself Canonized by the church) as a resource of Truth and turning away from all that is preached as “Satanic delusion”…which is most everything outside of the Bible-only, Jesus-only paradigm.

 Thus when I look at their fruits, I see little in the church that attracts me. A short study will reveal organized church history is not a pleasant one. Great atrocities and torture have been done in the name of Jesus.

Yes, it is true. Many fine individuals can be found within the church gathered in fellowship and love nurtured within a common spiritually uplifting circle of faith. It is also true much wisdom can be learned from what may be presented in the sermons and studies of certain teachers and preachers. But overall; when viewed from the outside through the eye of world wide multicultural appreciation of art, science, literature, learning and historical perspective; I see Church orthodoxy as bearing the fruits of divisiveness, animosity, racism, misunderstanding, conquest of “soulless savages” as a divine right and even war.

Indeed, I do consider myself a Christian. I am a follower of the Christos, the Christ Spirit through which Jesus was anointed and instructed by God the words he was to say. Jesus gave us the Bread of Life; the same eternal truths seen in the Bhagavad-Gita, Quran, Zend-Avesta and other Holy revealed Writings. Jesus indeed gave his life; He submitted his will to the Will of his Father in Heaven. He lived the 1st Commandment which is to” Love the Lord thy God with all your heart and all your soul”. Jesus was a perfect Muslim, a perfect Buddha. The word “Islam” means “submission to the will of God”. Buddha means “Enlightened one”.

As such, I find the truths, guidance and wisdom extolled by Jesus is not confined to only the church and to Christian held sources. The very concepts of “believer- non-believer, sinner-saved, Christian, non-Christian; any form of classification, stereotyping, prejudicial assumption, conjecture or judgment must be put aside. Instead let us look at humanity as the flowers of one garden; to appreciate different hues and styles of humanity world wide as one would view the myriad colors and shapes crafted together as designed by a master gardener; to be as waves of one sea, united in the ocean of God’s love.

We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations — that all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that all bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease and differences of race be annulled — and so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away and the most great peace shall come. Is not this that which Christ foretold? Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind.” (Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 10) Baha’i

I leave you with these words from the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita, “The Song Of God”.  Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form. Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice and a predominant rise of irreligion–at that time I descend Myself. In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium”. Bhagavad-Gita Chap 4:6-8

And this: “Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the laws and the prophets”. ((Matthew: 22:36-40 KJB.)

And again,”And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, [God] and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. [God] That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!  They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! 32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. 33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse”. Quran: Sura 9 “Repentence Islam

Study and peruse with an open mind and spirit the many distinguished books and verses of Divine Will and understanding bequeathed to us from the Source of the Word, that very Word John refers to when he says,”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not”. (King James Bible, John 1:1)

David

For more issues and interfaith studies see http://onenessbecomesus.com

 

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A Dialogue With A Christian

Posted by David on October 16, 2007

A Dialogue With A Christian

An example of thinking from an Orthodox Christian point of view

This article is a compilation from E-mail correspondence between myself and the owner of a website devoted to spreading the news,”Jesus represents the only path to salvation for both individual souls and the world at large”.

Careful study of the Christian Orthodox responses is warranted.

  1. Is this the only way to interpret the Bible?
  2. Does this interpretation truly serve the cause of Jesus?
  3. If so, how does this thinking reconcile itself with what is taught in “The Lord’s Prayer” where Jesus teaches us to pray to,” Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name,” -not to Jesus but to God?
  4. Is this thinking symptomatic of a world condition of mistrust, conflict, terrorism, intolerance and inquisition; where Moslems, Christians, Hindus, sects within sects, etc. are professing the only path to true salvation; where God is on their side and not available to others.
  5. In contrast, how does this thinking promote true reconciliation and lay the foundation for a much needed world peace with justice and equity between all nations, races and religions?

(The real name of the Christian in this e-mail correspondence has been changed to “Christian”.)


Hello David
Thanks for visiting the site.

Being good stewards of the earth is certainly a good thing, but not if it will lead to a one world religion where those not subscribing to it will be
persecuted and killed.

I am somewhat familiar with the Baha’i faith. I learned a bit of it from a co-worker many years ago and from this website:

http://www.watchman.org/profile/bahaipro.htm

Christian

Hi Christian:

Thanks for the e-mail. I did go to the link on the Baha’i Faith. Although much of it is accurate it seems they have gone to a lot of trouble to attack it. There are many passages where Baha’u'llah says “We were created noble in the image of God, that you will find Me (God) within yourself. The first commandment of Baha’u'llah, as in the Gospels, is to love God and seek a relationship with Him. Yet God is treated as a Being with human qualities. All Baha’u'llah is saying is “we can never truly grasp the divine Reality”.
Baha’i is not a faith that condemns all other faiths, Indeed Baha’u'llah teaches all major world faiths such as Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, etc. were inspired directly by God.
Christianity itself has a pretty grim history when it comes to domination by Inquisitions, Crusades and the like. Christian friends say to me “I need salvation”, We all need salvation by turning to God…whether God is called Vishnu, Gitchi-Manitou, Jehovah, Ahura-Mazda, Allah etc. we need to turn to, love and worship the personal creator of us all. It is only when any religion claims to be the only one that we have conflict.
David

Hello David,

I think that is the crux of the issue. Jesus in the Gospels says He is the only way to God. No one comes to the Father except by Him, not Him or Vishnu, Gitchi-Manitou, Jehovah, Ahura-Mazda, Allah, or whatever so-called god is in the world. This message brings conflict because many do not really desire the Truth, but prefer instead to follow the dictates of their own hearts and minds.

How can Baha’u'llah say all major faiths of the world were directly inspired by God when faiths such as Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam teach differing and opposing doctrines? It would seem that this statement by Baha’u'llah cannot be true, no matter how good it may sound on the surface.

If the Baha’i faith was able to become the one world religion, or at least become the religion of a particular country, would its adherents not also pressure, persecute and eventually kill those who refuse to convert? Too often in history religions will preach love and tolerance until it gains dominance. Then the message changes to convert or die. Islam and other religions have this history. Certainly the Crusades and the Inquisition were terrible events, but they came as a result of an abandonment of the teachings of Jesus in favor of power over people making use of religion. Jesus never taught His followers to kill or torture people to make converts for His kingdom. Also, it can be argued from history that the Crusades came about initially because Muslim raiders were continually attacking Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land.

If Jesus’ claim about being the only way to God and salvation is true, and there is plausible evidence to support this, then other so-called gods and faiths cannot save anyone who trusts in them. If there is only one bridge over a deep chasm to the other side, then no matter how sincere some may feel about taking an alternate way, it cannot save them. Only the bridge. Some pointing to the bridge as the only way to safety may be deemed divisive or intolerant by those prefering to take another way, but only those taking the bridge will make it to safety, while others taking alternate routes end up losing their lives in the chasm below.

So if anyone is to be saved by God and enter His heaven, it can only be through trusting in His Son Jesus alone. God has the right to establish the way to salvation. We as His creation cannot tell God that we would rather reject His gracious offer and seek our own way to heaven and expect entrance. We would not allow someone into our home unless they accepted our invitation to enter through the front door. Someone trying to sneak in by a back door or window would not be welcome.

Jesus taught in John 10:1-5,

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

It seems that Baha’u'llah and founders of other world religions have sought to climb up some other way because they could not enter the sheepfold by the door. Why not follow the Jesus the Messiah? He is not a thief and a robber, but the Savior and True Shepherd who gives eternal life freely to all who trust in Him alone.

Please take a look at www.gospeloutreach.net/gospel.html and www.gospeloutreach.net/saved.html. These pages will provide a good summary of the Good News.

Christian

Hi Christian:
I have read the Gospels and find much evidence to support Jesus being a servant of God. He prayed to his Father in Heaven. Jesus also proclaimed “these words are not from me but from the One who sent me”. Many Christians are unaware of the Creed of Nicea composed by a committee of Bishops near 327 AD. At the time of
Constantine there was much misunderstanding as to the true nature of Jesus and the Christ which anointed him. It is here that the deity of Jesus was made official. I have a website where different scriptures of different faiths are compared. The same universal truths of “love of God” and “the spiritual nature of man” and the need for the salvation of God are found in all major world faiths.

For a Biblical study of Jesus as deity or savior link to http://onenessbecomesus.com/JesusGod.pdf

For a broader scope on Christianity see http://onenessbecomesus.com/Christianity.pdf

Hi David,

But Jesus said in the Gospels, specifically John 14, that He is the only way to God the Father, not one of many ways. Salvation comes only through Jesus according to His own teachings in the Gospels. Any founder of another religion, whether it is Baha’u'llah or someone else, that says all major religions are inspired by God cannot be telling the truth since they teach differing and contradictory things about God and salvation. Also, the deity of Jesus is taught in the Gospels quite clearly, especially in the Gospel of John and the rest of the New Testament. The Council of Nicea only confirmed this teaching in light of the Arian heresy that had arisen at that time which falsely taught that Jesus was not deity, but a created being.

The only way into God’s heaven is through trusting alone in His Son Jesus according to the teachings of Jesus Himself. Either Jesus was a liar, a lunatic, or He was telling the truth. Other faiths that teach nice things about the love of God yet point to someone or something other than Jesus as the sole means for salvation cannot provide entrance into God’s heaven. We enter the heavenly gates His way or not at all according to Jesus. Neither Baha’u'llah nor faith in his teachings can save anyone. Only Jesus the risen Savior is able to save all who trust alone in Him.

Christian

Hi Christian:

Jesus does speak the Words of God but, at the same time he is not God. He was anointed by the Christos, Greek for Holy Spirit, Baha’is believe this Holy Spirit of Truth is the only way. This “Spirit of Truth” is what John refers to when he says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning,: NIV
The only way we can know God is through the Word through which God makes His Presence known to us. John
7:16 Jesus says,” My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God’s will he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth,”
There are many passages in the Bible where Jesus clearly shows he is not divine but is doing the will of his Father. To me, it is self evident Jesus is one of many lamps giving light to the world through the Word of God. I ask you; would God the Father `choose only one faith and creed as the doorway to salvation. What matters is your relationship to God, not what particular religion you adhere to.
These truths are seen in many different faith traditions. God’s love embraces all. I have felt the love of God many times in my life as have friends of different faiths.
David

Hello David,

Since Jesus does speak the words of God, a careful study of the Gospel of John even from the first chapter shows that He shares the same nature as His Father in heaven. Passages like John 1:1, 10:30-31, 20:28, and many others attest to this.

Since Jesus speaks the words of God, consider His words.

“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” (John 8:12)

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6)

Note that those refusing to believe or trust in Jesus have no eternal life and are under God’s wrath, walk in darkness rather than light, and lose out on the sole way to God the Father. Notice also that Jesus taught that He is THE light of the world, not one of many lights. He is THE way to God, not one of many ways.

These are the words of Jesus. No one who teaches or believes that there are many ways to God truly takes seriously what Jesus taught their claims notwithstanding. Such people may claim to say Jesus speaks the words of God, yet they negate them when they refuse Jesus’ own words and teachings on His exclusivity.

Why would God choose only one way to salvation? He is God and we are not. It is His sovereign right to establish the way to salvation. No one truly loves God while refusing to adhere to His terms, especially since He is not required to save anyone. So it may feel right to believe in many different ways to God, but it is clearly shown from the teachings of Jesus that such a belief is not only false, but cannot save anyone.

“There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” (Proverbs 14:12)

Christian

Hi Christian:
I hope I am not offending you. I would like us to be friends in God, the All-knowing, the All-Wise!
Orthodox Christianity assumes the “Son ” means the flesh and blood Jesus of Nazareth. My Faith teaches the “Son of God” is not of the physical but of the spirit. The spirit has no beginning or end but is eternal. If I read aloud passages from the Bible to an audience are they not hearing words of divine truth? Yet, it is not my words that are spoken. In like manner, when Jesus speaks with the authority of God the words he speaks are not his own but from God.
David

Hi David,

It is not me you should be concerned about offending. It would not be possible for us to be friends in God since you serve a different god form the God of the Bible. Actually, orthodox Christianity holds that “Son of God” attests to Jesus’ deity since He shares the same nature as His Father. This is based on Jesus’ own teaching about Himself that I shared with you before. So your denial of Jesus’ own teaching and the rest of the Bible make it impossible for us to be friends in God. We can be friends in a more general sense, however.

I do not say this to be offensive, but to tell you the truth.

Christian

David

(For me, I see the diversity of humanity as an essential element for the strength of the human ecosystem. All of humanity is nourished under a Universal, All-Knowing, Beneficient God. It is time to rise above the parochial thinking of Orthodox philosophy and come to the realization of the essential unity of Truth God is one, Mankind is one and religions have within their Sacred texts example of the same source of the Spirit of Truth. For more on the philosophy of intrinsic oneness and examples of how religions around the world teach the same eternal lessons go to http://onenessbecomesus.com

MTR coal mining is a serious matter in Appalachia. see http://speakingoutworld.com )

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